Achieve Math Success: S2 E13

Good morning.

Hey everybody, Cheri Dotterer here.

I am here for Tier One
Interventions this time.

My other podcast is The Writing Glitch.

Maybe you didn't know that, but if
you want to hop over to The Writing

Glitch, you can hear interviews with
people who are improving the connections

between reading, writing, mostly reading
and writing, but We always get that

math and writing in there as well.

I am here today with Jonily Zupancic
, and we are going to talk today

about a problem that is happening
with counting with our students.

why do we have these difficulties
with Math, and how do we help

them as an occupational therapist?

And I think that this particular problem
is going to be the one that goes AHA

to the occupational therapist because
it focuses on counting and visuals.

It's using visuals for counting.

As we get into this episode, I want
you to think about what are the visuals

that you're using in your therapy
practice that will connect to counting.

Counting and visuals are essential
for overcoming the math challenge.

Previous knowledge of counting and
skip counting, and you may not even

know what I mean by skip counting.

Skip counting is when you
do something like 2, or 20.

It's when you're skipping
numbers in between so that you

can come up with the answer.

I hope that you listen in for the rest
of this podcast and the rest of, and

some episodes coming up, because Jonily
is going to delve into counting, skip

counting, and how visuals connect.

,
Look for information coming up in
January for the subscription box.

Even the box keeps giving and
giving, even though you have one

box, it still keeps giving to others.

I think it was wonderful.

Thank you.

Jonily, tell us how do
we get kids to focus?.

We were making good progress, and now
we're just going back to where we were.

Tier 1 interventions should be a
complete system for how to strengthen

the core Tier 1 regular general
classroom with academic, mathematical,

and non academic interventions.

Think about this.

Are you looking for ways as a general
classroom teacher to increase the

engagement and focus of your students?

Are you also desperately finding
techniques to be able to individualize

for each need of students in the regular
classroom without more work, without

more prep, and without more stress?

Today's session is going to be
very different than the other

Tier 1 intervention sessions.

We've been on a good roll.

You come to Tier 1 interventions,
we expose a task, and we talk

about what it looks like.

Interaction 1, Interaction 2, Interaction
3, Interaction 4, Interaction 5.

The structure today is
going to be different.

The structure is going to be
four parts, and we are going to

create techniques and strategies
for each of those four areas

that I've just mentioned.

The areas of deficit that are
increasingly Making Tier 1 Core General

Classroom inaccessible to students.

One task can do that.

We call these tasks reference tasks
because we reference them throughout the

year when we're teaching our typical,
regular instruction with our textbook

resources that we would always do anyway.

The questions that we're
going to answer today are,

How do we individualize?

It's through prompts and questions.

There are two types of
prompts and questions.

There are stop thinking questions
and prompts, and there are keep

thinking questions and prompts.

We want to facilitate with keep thinking
questions and prompts, with stop thinking

questions and prompts sprinkled in.

An example of a stop thinking
question and prompt is, How much

money will Kay have on day five?

There's one answer to I might
ask a stop thinking question, How

much money will Kay have on day 5?

To help kids make sense.

And then students might say, Oh 28.

No, 35.

And then what's my role?

Don't confirm or deny.

Oh, okay.

We have 28 and we have 35.

See, don't confirm or deny.

Don't confirm.

So I can ask a stop thinking
question, and by not confirming or

denying, I make it a keep thinking
question, even though it's a solve.

A stop thinking question is basically
your typical solve and answer getting

question, and we can't eliminate those.

We need those.

We need a lot of them.

But if that's all the prompts
we ever give students.

We are not individualizing.

We're not going to deep thinking.

We're not doing depth of knowledge.

We're not getting to critiquing curiosity,
creativity, reasoning, sensemaking.

We're not getting to
that level of thinking.

We're not getting to that heightened
cognition, which is what mathematics is.

I tell kids all the time, I don't
teach mathematics, I teach thinking.

I don't teach mathematics, I teach
thinking, and this is exactly how I do it.

When I don't confirm or deny
that, kids keep thinking about it.

It doesn't matter to me right now
whether they think it's 28 or 35.

Okay, that doesn't matter right now.

What matters is, I don't confirm
or deny, I acknowledge both

of them, I leave it up there.

And kids keep thinking, because what
will happen is, I'll say, okay, let's

talk about when I say how much money
each starts with, what day is that?

So see, I move on to another
topic, and then all of a sudden

a student will go, Oh no.

It's not 28.

I get it.

It's 35.

I thought it was 28, but it's 35.

Do you see how they're
continuing to process?

They're confirming and
denying it for themselves.

The best way.

Oh, y'all don't miss this today.

The best way.

For a child to learn something, truly
learn it, truly create a core memory,

truly get A learning deeply ingrained like
riding a bike so that you never forget

is for them to figure it out themselves.

The more I tell as a teacher, the more
they hear, but the more they tell me

as a student, the more they learn.

See, this is where we have a
warped version of expectation.

We think because we've told them 16 times.

that Kay is going to have 35 on day five.

We think that since we've told
them that many times, that

they're going to learn it.

But that is not how children learn.

What did Cheri say about the stove?

And math isn't even a hot stove.

It's not a hot stove and
it's not a busy street.

So we can open up this huge
opportunity for risk taking and for

kids to learn on their own and to
figure it out themselves through the

techniques that I'm teaching you.

We can open up this huge opportunity

without them getting hurt.

Math is not a hot stove or a busy street.

They're going to be okay.

And success in learning
only comes through struggle.

You must experience struggle.

Good, positive, healthy struggle

to enjoy success.

And what I'm modeling for you
today is the way to facilitate

Some of y'all are creating unhealthy
struggle for your students.

I've moved on and I've said,
remember, I'm individualizing.

How do we individualize and
differentiate with one task?

Now I'm moving on and I'm like,
look, we keep start, we keep

talking about the starting amount.

The starting amount, okay?

What day is the starting amount?

This is the ultimate concept of rate
and function at the secondary level.

This is the ultimate concept of rate
and function at the secondary level.

Is what number is associated with
the starting point, mathematically.

Kids want the number one to be the
starting number, and there are so many

implications to that misunderstanding.

The starting day, the starting
amount is always zero.

Day zero.

For those of you that teach
at the secondary level, the y

intercept is the starting amount.

It's the constant and the starting
amount is on the y axis because that's

always the value where x is zero.

And if x is my day number, the
starting amount is at day zero.

And that is the conceptual understanding
for y intercept or my constant term.

Day one is tomorrow.

Day one is tomorrow.

Now I'm going to go back.

Remember, I haven't confirmed
or denied K with day five.

Now I'm going to go back to K and
I'm going to say, okay how much

money does Kay have on day zero?

Day zero.

Day and dollar.

Day zero.

Watch what I'm doing
deliberately and intentionally.

I'm skipping some space here.

Day zero, Kay has seven dollars.

No, I'm sorry.

Look at me.

See, I totally messed that up.

That was not intentional.

Let

me tell you this because this is what
happens in my brain all the time.

When I'm teaching kids.

And when you're teaching kids,
this type of facilitation is very

difficult when you're not used to it.

But as Krista said way early on today,
look, I'm in such a habit of this model

of instruction now that I'm asking
keep thinking questions all the time to

facilitate and I'm individualizing and
like it's just so natural for me now that

it's an easier way to teach mathematics.

But if you're not at that point this
is going to be very difficult because

what's going to happen is you're
going to be thinking of your next

facilitation question as you're trying
to facilitate the current reality.

Which is just what happened to me
because I started thinking about where

we were moving to part three, which
is the accessibility, which is where

we're going to get to the sensory and
the all of the stuff that Cheri is

going to give us some great insight
into the visual and all of that.

Because right now this
hasn't been sensory.

It's been accessible.

As far as sensemaking, but I
haven't added that visual level yet.

So I was thinking about that and I said,
Oh, on day zero, K is going to have 7.

So it happens to the best of us.

Day zero, K has 0.

What about tomorrow?

Day 1, 7.

Oh, 2 days from now, 14.

Now, I can continue this table,
and as I start doing this, then

all the kids are like, It's 35,
it's not 28, it's 35 on day 5.

But see, that happens way later.

I don't confirm and deny right away.

I continue facilitating other
things so kids can try to

figure it out on their own.

That is the way learning sticks.

We're actually decreasing the
memories that kids are making by

confirming or denying too soon.

We're not giving them enough
think time, enough process time.

And we're not giving them
enough time to make sense.

And reason.

I hear teachers say this all the time.

My kids just can't think on their own.

They can't reason.

You know why?

You don't let them.

You want them to do it,
but you won't let them.

This is hardcore today, guys.

And I don't apologize for it.

Then we do the same thing for Jesse.

How much does Jesse have on day zero?

Fifty.

This is a little glitchy.

How much does Jesse have tomorrow?

Some kids want to add the 50 and the 5.

We just work through that.

Tomorrow, Jesse has 55.

Two days from now, Jesse has 60.

Now, let's say I'm like, okay,

how much money did Jesse have yesterday.

So what I might do, see, look at
all of the questions that I've asked

that I can increase or decrease the
level of understanding for my kids.

But here's a question.

Here's a salty question.

You can lead a horse to water,
but can't make it drink.

I can lead kids to learning,
but I can't make it stick.

I can't make them learn.

I can make a horse thirsty, though.

Guess what?

I give it a salt lick.

So what we need to be asking
ourselves when we facilitate

mathematics instruction is.

Not, how do I make my kids learn?

How do I make them thirsty?

If you go back and listen to part one
of Jesse and Kay, I've modeled exactly

with one task how to make them thirsty.

How to increase that focus and
engagement, gain their perspective,

tell me about, don't confirm or deny.

How do we then individualize?

We ask stop thinking and keep thinking
questions randomly at different levels.

Thanks.

But with a stop thinking question, we
don't confirm or deny immediately, so

I'm giving you the exact step by step.

And we can do this with lots of
other tasks, just using Jessie

and Kay today as an example.

But the process is the
same, no matter what task.

This is probably the hardest part
to individualize and differentiate

as an instructor, because we
don't know what questions to ask.

And that's why I am always
giving you sample questions.

And when you're enrolled in the Tier
1 Interventions course, you will

have slide decks and documents that
have all of these sample questions.

You also have Hear Me Teach,
where I'm actually teaching and

facilitating to kids, not adults, so
you can actually pick up on all the

questions and prompts that I give.

How do you learn all of
them for Jesse and Kay?

There's not a complete comprehensive
list, but I give you a bunch of

examples, and you just need to pick
out three or four of them, and every

year, you adapt more and more of them.

For you as a teacher to learn this
model and to truly transform and

transcend your instructional practices,
that is going to make a difference.

Tier 1 core general classroom
accessible to everyone and

fully successfully inclusion.

The only way to do that is for you
as a teacher to grow over time and I

always say that individual teachers,
it takes about 8 to 10 years to

unbreak all of those old habits.

We're teaching the way we were
taught and that did not work

for the majority of people.

I got to say that's very true about
occupational therapists as well.

I was doing a lot of reflection
this week on where I, as an

OT, was doing interventions.

And after delving into this product with
you, how my interventions have shifted.

And, for example, when I would go in to
a kid's, I went to kids homes because

I did cyber before cyber was known.

I would go in, we'd do a gross motor
activity, a warm up activity, then

we would do some kind of lesson
with some handwriting involved, and

depending on how they performed, we
would do a reward at the very end.

Of the session, Don Teresa, does
that sound like a typical thing

that we've been trained to do?

And I slowly started
implementing things like

Okay, what do you see?

What do you notice?

Tell me about, before I started doing the
instruction, and they're looking at me

like, what do you mean, what do I see?

And I'm on a one to one basis, not a
whole classroom, and the kids are looking

at me like, what do you want from me?

Because we don't usually
do this and they are there.

They were very slow and picking up the
change, but yet it was empowering them

because it was, I was facilitating what
they understood versus what I understood.

I understood.

I thought they understood.

So I would take a vertical line
and a circle, put them out there.

What do you see?

What do you notice?

What if we put them together here?

Oh, it's a B.

What about here?

Oh, it's a P!

Oh, what if we flipped it and
put it on this side and started

to work at it from that angle?

We flipped the script a
little bit with the literacy.

Now, if you were with us on Wednesday
night, we talked about numbers and some

of the things that happen and change
with children's understanding of number.

This is Cedric, your AI Assistnat
for Tier 1 Interventions Workshops.

Jonily and Sheri thank you for listenting.

You have been listening to Part two
of the Reference Task Jesse and Kay.

Parts 3 and 4 are included in
our Mastery Math Method course.

Now available online at
https://disabilitylabs.com/courses/tier-1-interventions-workshops.

We hope to see you there.

We want to wish you a very
Merry Christmas, Happy

hanukkah, and Happy New Year.

We will not be publishing a
podcast episode for Christmas

Eve or New Year's Eve to give
our staff a much needed vacation.

We look forward to seeing
you in the new year.