Cognitve Science Meets Counting: S2 E16

Speaker 2: Hey, everybody.

It's Cheri Dotterer, your classroom coach.

I am here today at Tier
One Interventions Podcast.

My sister podcast is The Writing Glitch.

And this past week, we offered some
really amazing things on both podcasts.

On Saturday Math, we It was such
a powerful conversation that we

aired the entire hour and a half
episode on Tuesday, and on Thursday,

we aired Impact Wednesday, which
was a follow up to that session.

The conversation on Saturday Math
was about cognitive science of math.

And what are some of the terms that
Jonily and I use when we are teaching

the instruction methods that we
are teaching, and that is spaced

repetition, interleaving, spaced
practice, and cognitive feedback.

I hope I got them right.

Jonily's shaking her head.

Close enough.

And in Impact on Impact Wednesday,
we followed up with What parts of

the brain turn on when those types
of instruction are provided and

what parts of the brain shut off?

What we discovered in that second
part was that anything that has to

do with executive function shuts off.

How are kids going to learn and
make connections if those parts

of the brain that kind of put
things together get shut down?

If we're not teaching using
a cognitive science method.

Go back, listen to the episodes from

the second week in January.

I will have the information in the show
notes as to which episodes they are.

And look forward to some more sessions
that correlate to the science of math.

And for anybody here at Tier 1
Interventions Workshop today, I have

the slides tuned up here that we can
take some time and look at those as as

a group and go into them a little bit
deeper here in Tier 1 Interventions.

Rise and shine, good morning ladies!

Teresa: Generally, just a quick question.

As I'm OCD and have to know ahead.

Anything I need to be prepped
for the end of the month?

Jonily: Being a lifetime certified
coach, you get to go through all

of the new cohorts coming in.

We need our own self awareness and
our own confidence, because we need

to speak as if we're already doing it.

So if you want to prepare
your mindset, that's fine.

What to prepare for, but
physically, no, nothing you need

to do before the first session.

Teresa: I had an opportunity, I actually
spoke to two teachers this week, but my

thing is, I, language, because I'm not,
I'm, it's coming, I think that's where I

need to, because I can, I'm so excited to
tell them about you and about everything

and about what I want to work on, but when
it comes to putting it out there, it's

my mouth that doesn't, you know what I'm,
you know what I'm trying to say is I don't

have you, I don't have your mouth telling
them math and this and that, and I want

to tell them about interleaving and I want
to tell them about all those good things,

it's just, it doesn't flow out of me as
quickly as, As my brain wants to say it.

So those are the things I need to work on.

Jonily: And it's interesting you say that,
and I'm going to make a connection today.

So as we're going through today,
I want you to listen and look at

what I do through that exact lens.

Remember one of the things that I
always say is that I plan in chunks.

I do that when I teach kids and
I do that when I teach teachers.

When I start my paragraph with, I
say I plan in chunks, I have

three or four sentences that
I always Replicate verbatim.

What I do is I basically script all of
my mini chunks for the first two or three

sentences, so that when someone brings
that up and I'm going to be responsive

teaching and I'm going to teach on that
chunk, I already know the two or three

sentences that I'm going to say first,
because really our hang up when we're

speaking and presenting Our hangup
are the first two or three sentences.

Once we get the first two or three
sentences out, then everything else flows.

The intro is what's difficult.

So those are the sentences that I practice
and memorize so that when I'm teaching on

that topic, it flows really beautifully.

So that's just a little
piece of how I do it.

When I say I plan in chunks and
not sequences, What I do is I

document about 30 different chunks
of topics that I present on.

And for each of those, I
write my best three sentences.

That's an exercise that I do, and
then I literally memorize those.

Then I can ad lib after that.

That is a really great question, and these
are the things at the end of the month

when we jump into certification, these are
the things that I want to pull back the

curtain and tell you exactly what I do.

I used to not know what I did
because people would say to

me, Jonily, how do you do that?

But how do you say it that way?

And how do you get people
on the edge of their seat?

And how do you Make sure that you
don't pause and it sounds awkward.

How do you make it sound like
you're not reading off a PowerPoint?

And I used to not know, but what I've
done in about the last eight to ten

years is I've unpacked the processes
that I use to speak clearly, change

my tone, change my facial expressions,
watch my hand gestures, and figure out

what language comes through my lips.

Teresa, you are so insightful and
asking the exact correct questions,

and that is what I have analyzed for
myself so that I can better help others.

Again, I never used to be able to do that.

That's what we're going to focus on
as we go into the end of this month.

Great question.

Other thoughts or questions on that topic?

And you'll notice that I
haven't gotten there yet.

Tell us more about the let's
talk about this for a moment.

Sarah, good morning.

You have your hand raised.

Go ahead.

Good

Sarah: morning.

I think for myself, that I started
with Pam Harris a few years ago and

then somehow, and again, I can't
even conjure how I got connected.

with your stuff.

But what I know for Pam's work
and her strategies it took me the

time of listening again, going to
another thing, practicing it myself,

looking at the resources, like a
long cycle of me doing it myself.

And that led to more
confidence communicating it to.

Are teachers doing it with students?

And I know I'm not there yet with what
you have shared with me and taught me.

And I and I think to Cheri's point,
like sometimes, again, I know you

know what you're doing, but my mind
is like definitely more linear.

And I'm like give me the book.

Give me the And here's, kindergarten,
first grade, blah, blah, blah, like

all the like chapter by chapter.

And I understand that's not like always
the most beneficial way either, and

we've talked about that, like brain
development, like going here, then going

there, then going here, coming back here.

And so anyway, it's just taking
time, but I think in some ways

time is just time and experience.

Helps to develop a little bit better
understanding, and then when you really

own something, then you're able to
communicate it, if that makes sense.

Jonily: It makes perfect sense and Sarah,
I want to stamp something that you said

to make it really solid and what you're
describing is interactions over time.

I preach that's how we
need to be teaching kids.

What are the chunks?

What are the essential chunks?

What are the power standards?

And how do we deliver that in
micro doses, interactions IV drip?

But as adults, that's how we become
experts also is interaction over time.

When people say to me, I want to do what
you do, I want to do it how you do it.

First of all, I don't want
you to do it how I do it.

I want to teach you to be the best you.

Because the way I do
it, You can't pull off.

The way Cheri does it, I can't pull off.

The way Teresa does it, I can't pull off.

And so we want to make us the best
that we can be, but on the other side

of that, I think that as we start to
Analyze, we do that through Sarah,

and I'm going to stamp exactly what
you said because this is really good.

Just watching it over
and over and over again.

This is a really exciting group we
have here, and I'll tell you why.

Actually, you all know why, because
I think you all know each other.

But a couple of things I know, Kirk,
We were you, we'd wanna be you too.

I tell my family all the time, if
I were you, I'd wanna be me too.

I'd wanna be me too.

I'd want, and my kids are
like, mom, please, come on.

So yeah, let's just face it.

No, anyway Natalie and
Amy are certified coaches.

Amy, I have not gone back and
looked through all your texts.

You know me.

I will get to it and I will focus
on it, but I need the time to

do it and I appreciate you so
much, but so much has happened.

Amy, I did see your one question.

What year were you certified?

I think it was 2019.

I think it was 2019.

Natalie, do you remember
the year you were certified?

Was it 2021?

I think

Speaker 4: 2021.

Speaker 3: Okay, that's what I think.

So Amy and Natalie and Krista
have continued to follow.

So once you jump into your first
cohort, like most of us are lifers

and the program allows you to do that.

I would like to announce to
everybody here on this audience.

Teresa, give us a wave.

Sarah, give us a wave.

They are brand new this year's cohort.

Project 2026, Jumping into
the Certified Coaches Program.

So we start at the end of this month.

I think you know some of our
Certified Coaches, Natalie, Amy,

Krista, that have been here.

Life gets in the way and but when
we talk about the first session of

Certified Coaching and we start with
the phrase, I'm the nation's leading

expert in, certified coaching can be
more than just math achievement formula.

It can be thinking about lots of things
that you want your face to be known for.

Think about that also.

Cheri I'm always hijacking our topic
for today, but it's very exciting.

If we look at this group, we've got
current certified coaches and we've got

people jumping into the program and We
are all just so committed and move in

this movement so that so many people
can experience it and grow from it.

Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2: This was a good
group to do that for because

of all the certified coaches.

that are here.

And I wanted to hack the
conversation a little bit.

Of course, I know I go a little
on the, this is what's happening

in the world of disability labs.

But one thing that Jonily and I
have been thinking about, and I want

your opinion on this, a couple of
you got the Christmas, the holiday

box, and you found the value in it.

One of the things that we were thinking
about is I've created these quick start

guides for the different reference tasks.

Would that be something that you
would find value in if we did a

digital subscription that Just
highlighted those that you could

print them off yourself digitally.

Would that be something,
you would pay for

?
Because I was thinking about
putting those together.

I can start, I can set it up and do that,
but I wanted to ask before I did it.

Amy: I would say yes.

That would make it,

Cheri: okay.

Then I will get that ready, and
we'll talk about that in February.

Today, we're going to be talking about
the reference task called Staircase.

Jonily is going to separate this
into four different sections, and

that is how to increase focus and
engagement, how to individualize,

how to make math accessible, and
how to improve memory and retention.

I know, we're talking about this math
problem, and then none of those comments

that we have there say anything.

about mathematics.

That is because NumberSense is the
foundation of understanding concept.

Not, NumberSense doesn't
necessarily correlate or doesn't

correlate with procedures.

Procedures are a different animal.

Today, we're going to be looking
at NumberSense and the staircase.

Jonily, take it away.

Jonily: The biggest component of
improving NumberSense is counting.

The foundational gap filler.

for any math deficit is counting.

So we're going to take
counting to the extreme today.

We can do that in many ways, but
today we're going to take counting

to the extreme with Staircase.

I'm going to back up and layer two
other intros before we answer that

first question with Staircase.

The first intro is If we zoom
out a little bit let's zoom in.

Science of Math is coming.

Cheri talked about the two podcasts,
she talked about our intro opinions

of Science of Math and Cognitive
Science of Learning, and how we

need a cognitive science method.

If we zoom out, today is part of what
we call Tier 1 Interventions podcast.

The bigger umbrella of Tier 1
interventions is the Mastery Math Model.

The Mastery Math Model is the cognitive
science method Cheri was talking about.

So Tier 1, and I like to write as I talk,
so I want us to get a visual of this.

If I have that bigger umbrella, and
if we want everything focused within

cognitive science, COGSci, we call that
the Mastery Math Method, which is a

core Tier 1 general classroom structure
and approach to teaching and learning.

That is when we talk about
Tier 1 interventions,

that's the big idea.

If I go to a different color on this,
one of the Tier 1 interventions topics

is today's topic, and that is staircase.

We also know that above and beyond Tier 1.

We also have Tier 2 and Tier
3 math interventions that

depend on a strong core Tier 1.

That's not anything we're talking
about today, but I want you all

to see the big picture of where
all of this falls, and all of this

is grounded in cognitive science.

And as

Speaker 2: far as, I'm gonna cut you
off, sorry, and as far as occupational

therapists go, we do need a really good
foundation in Tier 1 with the classroom

so that when we have pull out sessions,
Tier 2 and Tier 3 are also effective.

That's why it's essential for you to
be part of the Mastery Math Method

because we're creating foundation for
counting that is essential for these

kids that are struggling so much.

Speaker 3: Cheri, great point because
the Tier 2 and Tier 3, when I use

the phrase, are dependent on Tier 1.

Most In most schools, these
are completely separate.

The strategies, the workings, the
therapy, whether it's speech therapy,

occupational therapy, behavioral therapy.

In order to have a highly
effective Tier 2 and Tier 3 in

schools, we need the occupational
therapist and the interventionist.

And the regular math teacher, and
the tier one math teacher, and the

instructional coach and, we need all
of these stakeholders to understand all

of this, and Cheri, that is, I want to,
yes, special ed, paraprofessionals, all

stakeholders need to understand And I'll
put a bigger umbrella, big cloud here.

All stakeholders need to understand
the entire vision and process.

The entire vision and process.

And the reason that I back us up before
we jump into this part of the session

is often when I present a topic,
people get really amped up about it.

We have some really good game
changing takeaways and people

send me testimonials all the time
about, look at what my kids did.

Look what they said.

Here's a picture.

They were so excited.

It was so fun.

It was so impactful.

I uncovered this.

But many times, what we're missing is
where that fits into the big picture.

Now, remember, in Tier 1
interventions, there are 12 of these.

There's a dirty dozen set of tasks.

Now, within all of this, I have
to actually put a bottom umbrella.

A bottom umbrella.

Because, again, all of this is
grounded in cognitive science.

But the goal of everything is improving
number sense and understanding of

number, which I just said a few
minutes ago is all about counting.

So the whole board is about
counting, like counting is the key.

So this vision and this mission, and I'll
move that away for a moment because I

don't want us to get distracted by it.

is really all embedded in a bigger
picture of where all these pieces fit.

I think that's important to say.

The other important thing that I want to
say, and I want to pull this up and draw

it for you today, I want two different
ways of visualizing big picture, and I

thought I had it up, but I didn't, so
give me just four seconds to do this.

In order to make certain that we
don't take a new model and implement

it with our old beliefs, we have
to talk about a new belief system.

When Singapore math came to the United
States, Singapore math is powerful.

The strategies, the techniques.

But they're grounded in a
certain instructional philosophy.

So when quote unquote Singapore math
came to the United States in the

form of a textbook, we as Americans
completely butchered it because

we were implementing this really
powerful model without the inner

philosophies and beliefs and frameworks.

So we were Americanizing
the Singapore math method.

And it completely crashed and burned.

In order to implement a new model, we
have to invest in a new belief system.

We call this belief system

the Five Seasons of Mathematics.

So if we start our year in August,
and let's say we go to June,

here's our entire year, In a
typical traditional system, we have

Unit 1, Unit 2, Unit 3, Unit 4.

Some of the spacing is a little bit
bigger, a little bit smaller, and that

is our mastery way of thinking, but we
need to have An implementation model

that is an exposure way of thinking
and it's what I call an exposure map.

The mastery map is such that our
district creates this pacing guide or

our textbook becomes the pacing guide.

If we have a mastery map,
which is actually it's fine.

I'm not telling us to get rid
of The Mastery Map, which I'm

going to list in pink here.

We have Unit 1, Unit 2, Unit 3, Unit
4, Unit 5, and then what happens is the

end of the year gets near and then we're
like, oh, we have to fit all these in.

And so we shortchange a
lot of our curriculum.

And it happens every year.

By the time March 1st comes, we're in this
panic mode, and it's because we've tried

new things, we've used a new textbook,
we've tried to implement a new model,

but we have not transitioned our mindset
and our philosophy about the delivery.

This new model

This exposure map is the five seasons
of mathematics throughout the year.

The first season is the most essential.

This first season is called First 15 Days.

In the first 15 days, we expose
every single one of these dirty

dozen in an intro, very quick
exposure, maybe in 12 minutes.

And just get a taste of what that is.

But for every single task, that we do.

Kids get a little piece of it.

Now, I'm going to stop sharing
there because I don't want to

share the whole five seasons.

I want to go right into what Staircase
looks like in season one and what

our purpose is for this, which is,
let's go back to our Staircase slide.

You guys are going to be proud of me
today because what I've done is I have

about four linear maps going on right now.

I'm teaching to you very linearly today.

I want you to notice that
I've done this for you.

You're welcome, okay?

But I actually have four
linear presentations today.

It's the staircase, Which is the counting
and the number sense and all that.

The second is this cognitive science
brain base that Cheri is going to

keep like bringing in as I present.

The third is the model and then the
fourth is The belief system of the model,

which is the five season of mathematics.

I've got four linear topics that I'm
presenting today, but I'm going to

be bouncing around between each one.

Tier one math interventions,
reference task number eight of the

dirty dozen is the staircase, and
the staircase is like a quick dot.

The QuickDot module is another module.

If you want to watch and listen to that
before, if you're watching the recording

of this, you might want to pause the
Staircase recording and go listen to

the QuickDot module because you'll get
the foundation of what a QuickDot is.

I'm not going to re explain that here,
but I want to make that connection.

Also, in this Staircase chunk, I
remind us of all of the Dirty Dozen.

The 12 reference tasks are exactly the
same from preschool through high school

for every grade level and every course.

They're the exact same task, but they
vary depending on the standards of

the grade level and the ability level
of the students in that grade level

that we are exposing the task to.

And for our non math and our non
academic and our support staff.

And for our parents and
our interventionists.

And those of us that are trying to improve
executive functioning with kids, improve

fine motor, improve visual processing,
for those of us that are trying to just

help kids function, and that is our main
objective and goal for our students, not

necessarily the math, these four focuses
that we're going to go through today

in presenting the staircase problem are
exactly what those stakeholders need.

Cheri has already mentioned
these, but the first is How do

we increase focus and engagement?

Now, I will tell you, of the stakeholders
that I mentioned, the regular math

classroom teacher has been asking this
million dollar question for years.

My kids are not focused, they're
not engaged, they're not on task,

they can't work independently,
there's no perseverance, there's no

this is the complaint of everyone.

How do we use Staircase to
increase focus and engagement?

In Season 1

We present a drip of it and
here's what that looks like.

In a moment I'm going
to show you a pattern.

I want you to tell me about this pattern.

Now you guys play along with me
because this is not a reference

task that I teach on a lot.

The most frequent reference
tasks that I teach on are paper

folding, 120 chart, Jesse and Kay,
pizza problem, making rectangles.

Because those ones actually teach
more mathematics than the staircase.

So let's play along with me for a moment.

Tell me about this pattern
of blocks that you notice.

Tell me about this pattern.

How many stages are missing?

Each column is one less
than the column before.

And Sarah, that's a great comment
because I'm going to tell you

what I experience with students.

When I show this to students, Amy,
your first graders usually say the

first one is included in the next one.

That, I don't think we, let's
sit on that for a minute before

I go back to Sarah's comment.

I don't think we realize how
brilliant that is for a first grader.

And we never, in mathematics, we
never give kids time to think and

process and share their perspective.

So if I go back to the question,

how do we increase focus and engagement?

We help kids feel like they
belong and that they matter.

And how do we do that?

Here are the exact steps.

Use my favorite three words.

Show them a stimulus, something
that's going to stimulate mathematical

thinking, reasoning, and sensemaking,
like what I've just shown you,

this picture of these blocks.

Do not ask a content related question.

Use my favorite three words, not I love
you, tell me about, and let kids share.

What that tells them is,
I care what you think.

I care about your thinking.

You belong here.

You matter.

Your perspective is important.

So how do I get kids focused and engaged?

This is the first step of the process.

Now the stimulus, you notice,
can't have a lot of noise.

Not the noise we hear,
but the noise we see.

Words, questions that get in the way.

Our stimulus cannot prompt
answer getting and solving.

My responses, go back and
listen to the recording of this.

What were my responses to the comments?

Love that.

Now we're fancy.

Okay.

I'm not confirming or denying anything.

Now I'm gonna go back to Sarah's comment.

Each column is one less
than the column before.

Many of my middle school, upper elementary
students, even high school students

will say, because of Sarah's comment,
each column is one less than before.

They'll say that as the pattern
grows, there's one more each time.

Therefore, it's a linear function.

I'm going to tell you right now,
I don't tell this to kids, but

because I'm presenting to adults
right now, this is not linear.

There's not a constant rate.

I just wanted to give that.

I don't do that in the classroom with
kids, but I say that in my trainings

with adults, just So that I can
continue to stimulate your thinking.

I'll go back to what Natalie has said
here, how many stages are missing.

What I typically do next is I will
define some things for students.

I will say, look, in a moment we're going
to get blocks and we're going to build.

So in a moment you're going to get some
blocks and you're going to build and play.

Now this may happen the first
day that I introduce it.

If this is season one, the
first 15 days of school, I

might spend 30 minutes on this.

It's okay.

But if I don't want to spend a lot of
time, I will say, the next time we come

back to this problem, we're going to use
blocks and you're going to get to play.

And then I may not come back to this
until season two in mathematics.

Let me go back to that.

Okay.

So season two in mathematics.

I want to get a different,
I want to get blue here.

Okay.

Season 2 in Mathematics goes
from about October to December.

Season 2 in Mathematics goes
from about October to December.

to December.

And this is where, after we have
a very intense first 15 days,

because we're exposing all of our
curriculum we have to be on our game.

We have to be creative, we have
to be intense, we have to be

the best facilitator we can be.

During this season two, from
October to December, we can

chill out instructionally.

This is a lot of times where people
are like, okay, Jonily, I've done your

first 15 days, I need to jump into my
textbook, I need to get back to linear,

I need to go to my pa This is where
you can really do whatever you want.

However, if you have done part of
Staircase in Season 1, maybe mid October,

you might bring Staircase back and say,
We saw this pattern about a month ago.

We saw this pattern about a month ago.

What do you remember about this?

Tell me about this pattern again, and
today we're going to play with it.

We can roll this out throughout
the year, not in one sitting.

That is the power of the model.

And if we go back to what Cheri is
talking about with the neuroscience

and the cognitive science, what I've
just done are two of them in, actually

three of them, interleaving, spaced
repetition, and retrieval practice.

When I come, when I do a hint of staircase
here, then I do my second interaction

of staircase, I've left space I've left
space between that, and I've done a lot of

other mathematics unrelated to staircase.

That's interleaving, out of context.

It's also spaced practice because
I've left space between the first

interaction and the second interaction
of the same chunk, of the same task.

Then, if I grab a different color here,

Then, when I'm at this point, instead
of jumping in and me reminding

students of what we've done before,
I go back to my favorite three words.

Tell me about this pattern and
what we talked about the last time.

That is the prompt for retrieval practice.

The reason retrieval practice is so
essential is because we need to forget.

Kids are either going to say, Oh, I
remember you were wearing that pink shirt

because I loved it because the bottom
was like a U and I kept looking at that.

And then you had pink shoes, but
they were a different shade of pink.

It's going to be insane what
kids remember about the moment.

And memory is about the
moment and the emotion.

We, I'm going to trigger you Cheri,
so be ready to say some things.

Memory, deep memory, deep core memories
are about the experience, the moment,

And the emotion of that moment.

So a month later, kids are going
to remember the strangest things.

Now on the flip side, some kids
are going to be like, I forget,

I don't remember doing that.

Or they're going to be like,
Oh, I was absent that day.

I was absent.

See, this model doesn't
matter if kids are absent.

If you have kids that are absent,
30 and 40 days every year.

This model negates their absences.

This does everything.

It does everything.

Kids will remember this, but
that is retrieval practice.

And when kids say I forget or I wasn't
here, I will then celebrate forgetting.

Forgetting is necessary because the
process we do immediately after, the

re remembering, is what deepens those
grooves, deepens the neural pathways

in the brain, and makes long term
memory and retention of content.

Speaker 2: And Staircase
is up into Disability Labs

Hey, listen in next week.

when, Jonily, and I talk about
how to in individualize and adapt.

The staircase.

See you next week.

Speaker 3: love y'all.

Bye everybody.