Why Good Math Teaching Doesn’t Always Look Like Teaching

Segment 8
===

[00:00:00] Hey everybody. It is Cheri Dotterer here at Tier One Interventions podcast. It's great to have you here with us while we talk about the core of the math classroom. Today we're gonna be talking more about. Pizzas, rectangles, lockers. Oh my.

Cedric:  Back on March 10th, 2026, we started a 10 segment series Here is segment 8 from our October Workshop. If you are enjoying what you are learning, please subscribe and leave a comment.

I think that was the right order. Over to Jonily.

I'm not sure why. I'm not sure if you think that has to be the icing on the cake, but that cake don't need no icing. Okay? It's already icing up and decorated with the topper and the balloons and the this, and like it's done. I already did it. Now, if Natalie wasn't so savvy as my observer, if Natalie wasn't so savvy, or if you have an [00:01:00] administrator, if you have an administrator that isn't real savvy on instructional delivery, that administrator is going to miss all of the instruction that happened because they'll see me going around, they'll see kids talking, they'll see all this happening, and they'll get on their phone and they'll check their email because they'll be like, oh, she's not teaching yet.

And then I won't bring the kids back together. And then the administrator will put on my observation, you never taught that. And I'll be like, you son. And then I have to then reiterate the evidence. But see, Natalie is so savvy on instructional delivery. She picked up on, she was like, dang, girl, I see you.

I see you. And then when I didn't do it after class, I was like, Hey, I didn't bring them to, and she's oh, I know, girl. I know exactly what you did and why you did it. Do you see, this is what we [00:02:00] want to strive for. Okay. We're missing the boat. Thoughts, comments, questions. The other thing, and I know my administrator, maybe not my ap, but my principal be like what were they doing?

Like they were messing around. They weren't all on task the whole time. What were they doing? And you didn't. And I, myself, I would be like what were they doing? But letting go, like you taught them any lesson. When we come back to do the next thing, then they'll all get back on that. And then that comes with training as well, that they know what they can and can't.

But my AP or administrator would be like they were messing around the whole rest of the time. Like they didn't, what were they doing? What were you expecting them to do? Why weren't they on task? This is funny because that's big conversation. So I get this question and here's my response for that.

Natalie, this is so perfect. I'm so glad you're helping facilitate this. So I've had an administrator say to me they were off task. They and I come back and I'm like, how many? And who was it? How many and who was it? [00:03:00] If we're so focused on data collection, you should know from that observation how many it was and who was it?

And I come right back at them. See, we need to get better as educators in advocating for ourselves and throwing the initiatives right back in their faces. Sorry, administrators. I love you. You know I love you. You know I coach you all the time, but I need you to hear this and I need teachers. I need you to hear how to respond to it.

And administrators, I need you to hear this. So I have said to my prince, my evaluator years ago, I'm like, how many kids were off task? At what time? And who were they? Now oftentimes the administrator can't answer that. And I'm like, then we're done here. Okay. Put your pants on as an educator and know enough and be well versed enough that you can come back with the better responses.

Now, I've had some savvy administrators say, oh, it was [00:04:00] Scotty and Rose. I'm like, oh, two. So two of them? Yeah, two of them. Okay. How many kids were in the class? 28. What time were they doing Nothing? It was when you were with the orange group. I was with the orange group for about three and a half minutes.

So for three and a half minutes. I honestly, and we may just differ on opinion and we're just gonna have to disagree. Agree to disagree, but those two students for three and a half minutes, I'm not fighting that battle. Let them chill. Let them do whatever. When I went to their small group though yeah, when you went to their small group, they engaged.

Okay, great. Guess what would've happened? If I would've pulled kids back whole class, that would've been another seven or eight minutes that those two would've checked out. So I eliminated another seven or eight minutes of those two kids being off task [00:05:00] by then coming back and switching to the other exercise that every kid was on task, because the exercise was every student individually had to make a rectangle with algebra tiles.

Then every student, they make any rectangle. I didn't give them any pre make a rectangle. Then every student got an index card. Then they had to get up and go to two other desks in the room, and on the front of the index card, they had to draw the rectangle they saw and write the area length and width.

And on the other side of the index card, they had to go to a different rectangle and draw the rectangle they saw and write the area length and width. So then everybody was moving, everybody was engaged. Everybody's on task. Everybody did it. 100% of them. So actually to your point, Mr. Or Mrs.

Administrator, and I'll talk to my admin just like this. Don't fool with me. So to your point, I agree those two were off task for three and a half minutes, but I avoided them being checked [00:06:00] out for eight minutes by avoiding the whole group lesson that everybody already got that you missed. 'cause you went to check your email on your phone during my observation

and then they were on task actually a hundred percent of the time during that next exercise. Now I know I'm getting snarky, but we need to snark right now. We need to start snark to make things happen. Cheri, so another conversation that I had this month was with Teresa, our occupational therapist that is going through your program.

And I'm not sure when you talked about this, but you were talking about algebra tiles and she and I looked at one another, went, what is an algebra tile? What is the difference here? What? What's going on? And we got the squares and the dimension chart. We got that basic understanding. And I think Kathy, [00:07:00] you were part of the facilitator with bringing in the algebra tiles and talking about the higher school, high school math did what Theresa did.

She went. PT and on Google, and she schooled herself in how to use algebra tiles. She has handouts like this on just algebra tiles since last month. Stop. And she's not here to own this whole process, but she's I understand it now, but she took the initiative to school herself. Teachers out there, are you taking the initiative to school yourself?

If you wanna school yourself in the Mastery Math method, in addition to Tier one interventions podcast, go sign up for the program today.[00:08:00]

I'll just say go ahead, Natalie. What admin would've, what admin would've seen is like those kids off task as well in your room. And it was a weird day 'cause it was like the end of their grading period. So some were doing other things, but some kids were just playing with algebra tiles and doing different things.

Or there was one kid that was like heavily entrenched in staircase problem, like he had a whole piece of graph paper and he was just, he was in it. So he's actually one, one of my autistic kids, and that's what he's been doing every day when he comes in, he opens his folder and he is just fixated on this one task.

I'm glad you noticed that. But they're they're conditioned to they're off, off task and said it was a weird day with in the grading period, but they were all doing stuff. Some of 'em were like playing with algebra trials and then they were talking, I had a great conversation with one group as they were making rectangles before they even did your task about like legal and illegal.

And then one said, you can't put, stack the yellows with the greens 'cause it's [00:09:00] not like terms. So I was like, oh, tell me about that. Are those like terms? And they were is still engaging in math because you have them they just know. But admin would be like, they're not doing the task.

They're off task. So just wanted to say that was No, I love that example too. See what they were doing. And the kiddo that you saw that has been fixated on the two-step staircase for like over a week is beautiful. This kid is a kid that will do nothing. Now he did continue, not verbally, but he did continue to refuse making the rectangle.

When I said every student has to make an individual rectangle, I had to go prompt him like three or four times. I think I finally had to say to him, you have to do this, or this is insubordination. So it was a behavior thing at that point I'm like, you have to stop doing this. Like I know that your brain is telling you can't stop, but you have to.

Or this is a behavior issue now this isn't a math issue. And he did. He created a simple one. He didn't gimme any flack. But [00:10:00] we've gone five or six weeks with him being very disrespectful and giving me a lot of flack for forcing him to do something, and it was a huge win yesterday. And so yeah, Natalie, I'm so glad you noticed just so many things yesterday and we're having this conversation about it.

Anything else?

I think that's a great question. I'm sorry, Sarah. I think that's a great question to bring up to administrators. Are students off task if they are doing math problems and problem solving? Are they really off task? And for me, it's an expectation in my classroom that you can switch task. Like I've given them permission to do that.

If they get reminded of something when we're doing one task and they switch to another task, like that's normal. I've trained them to do that. But now the admin is saying that they're off task. No they're not, because that's not the definition of it in my classroom. Do you see how much [00:11:00] baggage we have that we have to change?

Now you can give up and quit and say, I can't control any of that. Or you can say, no, I can control this piece of it and this is how I'm gonna do it because I know this is best for kids. That's up to you, Sarah. I'm gonna ask a question, but just a follow up to that. I, I also push back, if we expect.

All students to be on task all the time, in every class all day. It's the impossible. We as adults are not on task and a hundred percent all day long. So I certainly am not gonna expect my students to be like that too. My question though was going back to your groups more of a facilitation type question.

You were talking about doing the little mini lessons with groups and talking quietly with them and giving them some info. And then like you said, sometimes students start picking up on picking up on the fact that you've said something to another group. And I was just wondering if you ever have a moment where you're like, you know what, that's a great question.

Or about being stuck [00:12:00] in a certain spot or not Sure. Do you ever pull a student from another group that you've just been at to come and explain like that step, that they didn't overhear you giving to them Always and forever. Always and forever. Yeah. I'll be like, oh, Bridget just did that.

Bridget, come over here for a minute and then I'll leave Bridget with them and I'll leave. Another example is I might I might start talking a little bit louder and be like, Hey, orange Group, if I'm at the blue group, I'll be like, Hey, orange group, they just talked about this. What did you guys say about that?

And then I'll just have them tell them across the room. Yeah. Of the above. All of the above. And that's important to point out because there's so much flexibility that can happen with that. And then in my room, kids will just go do that without asking because they know it's okay. They know that, they're allowed and able to.

And then when I when kids are working like when I have 'em work in different [00:13:00] groups or I jigsaw them or whatever, and they have to move around the room, I've got flexible seating areas and kids will go sit in the flexible seating areas instead of at a table of desks also. So that gives them a chance to not only get up and move, but then sit in some of those flexible seating areas as well.

When I have kids at the vertical surfaces in random groups, sometimes one of my favorite moves is once, like we're all fairly through the problem, I will have one kid from each group rotate to the next board and they have to compare and share and talk about how their strategies are similar and how they're different.

And we might just do one rotation of that. We might do several, but that way they can, 'cause they're, right now they're still very much oh, they're looking at my board. That's cheating. And yeah, trying to school that out of 'em. But so sometimes I just force it. I'm like, okay, one per, we're gonna all rotate one person to the next board and have conversations about the work and make those comparisons.

That's beautiful. And a lot of times in education we call that protocol a gallery walk. So every group does their group work up on a vertical [00:14:00] surface, and then you either have one or two students move, or the whole group move and move around. We did this at the June event. We call that a gallery walk, where then they can go to other groups deliberately and intentionally and do another exercise that levels up, whatever that was.

Sarah, it makes me think of like a a combination between jigsaw and carousel. When you're doing like one student at a time, maybe. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Jigsaw, carousel, gallery walk, vertical surfaces. All of these are instructional tools. I didn't create these, but these are ones that I use to then facilitate the mastery math method model.

Cheri, did you have something else? Oh, you were off mute. I wanted to make sure. Okay. To finish up today, let's go back to the content. Let me share my screen here and go back to the content. So let me refresh us here, okay? Because these are gonna be like continuous notes as we continue to do our level two.

Okay? So we're using everything from level one and then we're continuing to [00:15:00] like, connect all these things together in level two. That's the whole purpose of level two. So the question was, how do we create diamond problems to help us understand diamond problems? What is the backend of this so that we can better facilitate diamond problems and not just do them?

Okay? So we said, now Amy knows to pick 24 because 24 is one of the numbers that we always, and forever pick. Okay? Here are numbers that we often want to select for diamonds and for making rectangles, okay? I'm just gonna tell you right now, and if you go back to tier one, interventions, level one, this is in the tier one interventions, level one training under the rectangle task making rectangles.

And if I forget any, put 'em in the chat, but here are some of my favorite numbers to use if you're having kids making rectangles. 24 is the first one. It's my favorite. 36 48, 64 100, but also eighteen twelve, twenty ten eight. [00:16:00] And then fancy me likes to do 51, 27, 23. And then Cheri, I'm gonna circle this back to what you liked circled 11, 17, 15 9.

So that's the numbers. Like now you're like, holy freak, how did you just pull those all out of your head? This is what I'm trying to unveil in level two for all of you right now. I'm trying to go back to the other agenda. I'm trying to peel back the curtain so that you can see the depth of the pre-planning for me.

Okay? I pull those all outta my head because for 20 years I have studied which numbers are the numbers that are my go-to now. Are there others? Absolutely there are. And I'll pick others and da. But if I had to give you a list right now, impromptu off the top of my head, Amy's go-to is always 24 and then 36.

I know it is because I've taught her that her go-to numbers are 24 and then [00:17:00] 36. She's learned that just from the repeated iterations and interactions over time with me. Okay? Now if she wants to level up with her kids, she's gonna jump to 48 and 64, but maybe she has to scaffold down, so she's gonna go to 18 and 12.

Do you see how this is naturally differentiated? So all kids with all kids, and look, I'm gonna even color code this. With all kids. She's gonna do 24 and 36. Then she's going to level up with some kids and go to 48 and 64. Now she's also got a hundred that she can use if she needs a level up.

'cause sometimes we have those level. Now if she needs to level down with kids, these are all the numbers that she can use to level down. Okay. Then with whole class, she's gonna do all these. So she's gonna come back to whole class. I'll put that in pink again with all of [00:18:00] those after. So we actually, during these iterations and seasons, I actually now in level 2:00 AM gonna give you the exact number to use.

So when you're making rectangles and talking about which rectangles make squares as a level two expert, these are the numbers that you're going to do in your seasons. Or if you teach higher grade levels, all of these numbers might be in season one. Okay? So I teach algebra one and algebra two. I've already done all of these numbers with my kids in season two.

Jonily, I wanna close out Tier One Interventions podcast, and that is, if you are listening to this podcast and you are thinking, how do I get involved, you wanna head over to your show [00:19:00] notes and click on the link. We are offering you to come to a session like this where you get all two and a half hours at one shot for $47.

You can then join another session for another $47. Or you can buy the whole year for $497 plus you have to buy the. When if you're going to go buy the whole year, you're gonna have to buy level one as well. But the coaching and these conversations that we're having are $497. That sounds to me like a really good deal for to, to really think the way you're thinking about not just mathematics, but occupational therapist delivery, speech therapy, delivery, special ed delivery, and how we're helping these kids rethink, reregulate, relearn and think about life as [00:20:00] whole.